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Re: Mutations favoring extinction over intelligence

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:42 pm
by cellular_automata
fungus3 wrote:
Alast wrote:I guess I should have [sarcasm][\sarcasm] tags to my text :lol:
I should remind @everyone that I am autistic and have Asperger's, so :|
First, no matter what condition you have, you should at least be able to have some kind of respect for other human beings and realise that they are more experienced than you in matters concerning the game, so you should probably take their word. If you can't do that, the blame is not on whatever condition you have, it's on you deciding to be rude to others. I know people with Asperger's and it is mild on the autistic spectrum, they are very similar to the general population and are quite smart. Unless you have a specific case, it is no excuse for your behaviour. I hold a lot more respect for people who admit their mistakes than those who try to pin the blame on something else.

On the topic of evolution preferring the efficiency of species in their environment, think about evolution in real life. In the long history of life on Earth, only one sentient species has evolved. That's us by the way ;). Intelligence only benefits the distant descendants of a dumb creature, only improving efficiency in the long term. Intelligence does not solve how you are going to eat tomorrow, how you will stay on top of your pack (if you are a social creature), how you will defend yourself from X or Y etc. for the dumb species that is evolving in that direction. Evolution strongly prefers individuals who mutate things that will answer these questions better in the short term like slightly sharper claws, some poison or marginally better eyesight :o. The environment needs to be conducive to encourage the development of intelligence, where needs are (mostly) covered like our ancestors in the savannas of Africa. Not too many predators (lions and hyenas mainly) to force our ancestors to get claws instead of bigger brains, not a lot of accessible or edible plants (forcing our ancestors to eat a lot of meat which is critical in the development of a bigger brain) and the disappearance of trees in the area, giving rise to our bipedalism.

Also, radiation would affect complex species (often the smarter ones) far more than simpler ones, like in real life we have more cells in our body and we live long lives so we have more opportunities for some of those cells to get mutations, leading to cancer. In the game, species with more cells have more opportunities to get mutated and die.

As disappointing as it may be, I rather have realistic radiation (in real life there would also be environmental pressures but its a petri dish so there's very little of that) than "pressures" that encourage intelligence. There's a reason why we have a sandbox mode :P.

Re: Mutations favoring extinction over intelligence

Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:05 pm
by fungus3
Perhaps the random placement of food bits isn't really random.

Re: Mutations favoring extinction over intelligence

Posted: Sun May 06, 2018 8:55 pm
by fungus3
Version 98 still does not solve this major problem! In fact, it seems that mutations are ACTIVELY favoring extinction over intelligence! :evil:

Re: Mutations favoring extinction over intelligence

Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 3:23 am
by ElNico5
This is frustating....

Re: Mutations favoring extinction over intelligence

Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 4:08 am
by Nayus
I guess the only way to convince you that the current build of the game isn't made against the evolution of Smart swimmers would be to actually develop a smart swimmer wouldn't it...

cellular_automata's explanation is pretty spot on. To that I'd like to add that the game is very 'simple' in the way that cells have a direct fixed and specific function, so the jump from dumb to smart is particularly tricky because of automata's explanation. Evolution goes smoother with little changes that produce advantages quick, and in the long run stack one on top of the other making big changes overtime. But the jump from dumb to smart is no smooth slither. It requires some steps that require alot of energy. So yes. In a sense, the way radiation works makes those jumps very difficult. But it is not caused by the programming.

But I'd like to move the conversation a little bit. It's obvious that you guys have been trying to produce Smart Evolution. I'd like to know what your approaches were like. How much radiation, what time of enviroment, how much time. Things like that.

I hope I don't have to clarify that we ALL want to get Smart Evolved swimmers. I think it would be better if we joined forces and try to get this thing instead of pointing fingers.

Re: Mutations favoring extinction over intelligence

Posted: Wed May 09, 2018 3:13 am
by CasualKid
Nah... The radiation, as it is, makes a game funny for me and my friend sometimes.

One week ago, my friend and I were trying to make a genome that shoots targeting children with a secrocyte as head (cyanide). It never worked for some reason, and it was after 2 hours trying to make it work that we noticed that radiation was turned on xD xD xD xD xD.

For my brother, it is watching the genome do stupid stuff and evolve like crazy that he think is funny.

Radiation as it is, is perfect to keep the game a bit more fun and surprising. :3

Re: Mutations favoring extinction over intelligence

Posted: Tue May 15, 2018 12:17 pm
by humon
cellular_automata wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:42 pm
fungus3 wrote:
Alast wrote:I guess I should have [sarcasm][\sarcasm] tags to my text :lol:
I should remind @everyone that I am autistic and have Asperger's, so :|
First, no matter what condition you have, you should at least be able to have some kind of respect for other human beings and realise that they are more experienced than you in matters concerning the game, so you should probably take their word. If you can't do that, the blame is not on whatever condition you have, it's on you deciding to be rude to others. I know people with Asperger's and it is mild on the autistic spectrum, they are very similar to the general population and are quite smart. Unless you have a specific case, it is no excuse for your behaviour. I hold a lot more respect for people who admit their mistakes than those who try to pin the blame on something else.

On the topic of evolution preferring the efficiency of species in their environment, think about evolution in real life. In the long history of life on Earth, only one sentient species has evolved. That's us by the way ;). Intelligence only benefits the distant descendants of a dumb creature, only improving efficiency in the long term. Intelligence does not solve how you are going to eat tomorrow, how you will stay on top of your pack (if you are a social creature), how you will defend yourself from X or Y etc. for the dumb species that is evolving in that direction. Evolution strongly prefers individuals who mutate things that will answer these questions better in the short term like slightly sharper claws, some poison or marginally better eyesight :o. The environment needs to be conducive to encourage the development of intelligence, where needs are (mostly) covered like our ancestors in the savannas of Africa. Not too many predators (lions and hyenas mainly) to force our ancestors to get claws instead of bigger brains, not a lot of accessible or edible plants (forcing our ancestors to eat a lot of meat which is critical in the development of a bigger brain) and the disappearance of trees in the area, giving rise to our bipedalism.

Also, radiation would affect complex species (often the smarter ones) far more than simpler ones, like in real life we have more cells in our body and we live long lives so we have more opportunities for some of those cells to get mutations, leading to cancer. In the game, species with more cells have more opportunities to get mutated and die.

As disappointing as it may be, I rather have realistic radiation (in real life there would also be environmental pressures but its a petri dish so there's very little of that) than "pressures" that encourage intelligence. There's a reason why we have a sandbox mode :P.
Is this also sarcasm?

Re: Mutations favoring extinction over intelligence

Posted: Tue May 15, 2018 12:33 pm
by Alast
I'm going to lock this thread. It's not at all productive and everything has already been said more than once without getting anywhere. The whole topic only leads to negativity and it seems like locking is the only way left to stop that.

Thanks everyone for understanding.