Gametes, Genotype, Phenotype

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bwisialo
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Gametes, Genotype, Phenotype

Post by bwisialo » Tue May 30, 2017 9:10 am

This topic has been moved here from another thread, beginning from this quote:
ShiN1GaM1 wrote:And 1 last idea, so I saw that you would implement gametocites, and in my understanding they would combine and inherit 1 of the parents modes (for each 1 of the 20 modes) I was imagining that the cell could store both 20 modes from the parents (genotype), but only 1 of them would be expressed, (phenotype), and them when the gametocite forms it only gets 1 of each mode randomly from the parent, then they (the 2 gametocites) fuse and the resulting cell has 40 modes but can only express 20 of them, chosing randomly from the "parent 1" or "parent 2".

I'm a graduating biologist, and I love evolution and all that has to do with that. So as you can imagine I loved this game! (o) (o)
The genotype / phenotype suggestion is very interesting. :) It should be in a different thread because it is a very different suggestion than the others discussed here.

I'm trying to imagine how exactly things play out differently on the scale of the substrate population in the long run if the genome has 20 expressed and 20 unexpressed modes. I guess it might create a more stable and exhaustive testing of the different settings in the gene pool.

There might be a problem with memory allocation if some genomes have 0 unexpressed modes (as they woild without gametes) and other genomes have 20 unexpressed modes, but I'm not entirely sure how yhose technical issues work.
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Nayus
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Re: Square plates

Post by Nayus » Tue May 30, 2017 2:42 pm

You mean like a recessive gene right? I like this idea.
If I understood it right,an individual product of a Gamete would have one configuration but store both, and in the moment of reproducing its own gamete, it will try to transfer randomly 1 of both choices for each mode.

So the second generation individual will be quite weird because it would have statistically part of Parent 1 Active Genome, part of Parent 2 Active Genome, part of Parent 1 Passive genome and parte of Patten 2 Passive genome.
Only Half of the information was transfer, 10 modes each, but the gamete offspring will still have 20 modes as the original one, so it wouldn't get overwhelming.
There's 2 problems though. 1 is that if a the probability of having certain genomes being only 50% would produce insane inconsistency in the offspring overtime and essentially it would mess up evolution altogether by being it so changing that there's no natural selección over time, Just generacional. Note: This is if the difference between parents is big

2, also related to 1, is that these kind of characteristics are found mainly on largers organisms right? Where there's a bigger configuration and changes usually are very very minor and only show after a long period of time.
Here very minor changes in a genome value can produce big differences in final organisms. Note I'm aware that I'm saying this to a biologist while I don't know any I that stuff.

The idea of having " copying errors" that I think was in a different thread could be paired with this thing. But the copying error would, to have my vote at least, have to have 2 things. 1 being able to be activated and deactivated by the user, as its own particular setting. And 2 being very veeery minor changes.

Or, heck, why not both ideas on one concept. That the gamene have a setting which controls the amount of error that it will have. That way to can have 0, meaning copies exactly as is, and slowly increases to an arbitrary ceiling.
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Re: Square plates

Post by ShiN1GaM1 » Tue May 30, 2017 5:12 pm

bwisialo wrote:The genotype / phenotype suggestion is very interesting. :) It should be in a different thread because it is a very different suggestion than the others discussed here.
So, should I copy/past it to a new topic? Or leave it here, since it is already posted.
Nayus wrote:You mean like a recessive gene right? I like this idea.
If I understood it right,an individual product of a Gamete would have one configuration but store both, and in the moment of reproducing its own gamete, it will try to transfer randomly 1 of both choices for each mode.

So the second generation individual will be quite weird because it would have statistically part of Parent 1 Active Genome, part of Parent 2 Active Genome, part of Parent 1 Passive genome and parte of Patten 2 Passive genome.
Only Half of the information was transfer, 10 modes each, but the gamete offspring will still have 20 modes as the original one, so it wouldn't get overwhelming.
As I imagined it, in the genome we would make only 20 modes (or less depending on the organism) and they would be homozigots (meaning that mode 1 and mode 1' would be equal, and mode 2 and mode 2' would be equal too and so on) but on the moment the gametocites fuse they pass 1 information for 1 of each mode(1 - 20) so for example «m1' m2 ' f3 f4' f5 m6 f7' f8 etc» (beeing the "m" meaning it comes fromt he "mother/parent 1" and f it comes from "father/parent 2"). And this would be the phenotype, then a second set of modes like «f1 m2 m3' f4 m5' m6' f7 f8' etc» and this would be the other part of the genotype that is not expressed. But althogh this is not expressed it CAN be inhetit by the daughter cells.
I made a figure to exemplify: http://prntscr.com/fdwe75
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Re: Gametes, Genotype, Phenotype

Post by bwisialo » Tue May 30, 2017 11:46 pm

I moved it.
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Tarux
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Re: Gametes, Genotype, Phenotype

Post by Tarux » Wed May 31, 2017 1:01 am

Depending on the organism, I don't really think that there will be much change between individuals via gametes. Probably the only possible variations are through copying errors or radiation. Variations in real life are due to changes in the environment from one area to another, but in Cell Lab, the same conditions are maintained across the entire substrate, meaning that there won't really be any sort of necessary change.

What I'm really interested in seeing is what happens when interspecies breeding occurs? Is it even possible in Cell Lab, if gametes are added? It could be that interspecies, depending on the organism, won't even happen due to the fact that larger organisms utilize more modified modes, therefore having a larger, or more chromosome(s), making interspecies either impossible or resulting in a sterile organism (like real life). But in every genome, it's not just the used modes being saved, but all 20 even if the organism doesn't use them all. This would mean that all organisms will have the same chromosome size and/or quantity, making interspecies certainly possible (I think). So I still wonder, what will happen?
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Re: Gametes, Genotype, Phenotype

Post by bwisialo » Wed May 31, 2017 1:04 am

Yes, inter-species results will be possible. The more different the species are in cell types, cell layout, etc., the less likely the inter-species result is to be viable.

Yes, unexpressed genes / modes would be cool, but I'm not sure how much difference it would make beyond coolness. Perhaps some more stability and more efficient optimization because the unexpressed genes would provide of a reserve of possibilities that would have additional chances of being used and of surviving. How much more I'm not sure: it might be negligible.
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Re: Gametes, Genotype, Phenotype

Post by Tarux » Wed May 31, 2017 1:06 am

bwisialo wrote:Yes, inter-species results will be possible. The more different the species are in cell types, cell layout, etc., the less likely the inter-species result is to be viable.
Oh I see now.
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Re: Gametes, Genotype, Phenotype

Post by Nayus » Wed May 31, 2017 1:16 am

Something like this.

Image

I made just 1 slight variation where from the 4 homozigots, they get picked 2 at random. So those 2 could be from one parent too, not neccesarily 1 from each.

The Active Genome is what it will actually used in the child, while the Recessive Genome is just an option that can become Active in the offspring.

I made some particular examples in that image, that I'd like to be noticed:

- Both G1B homozigots were copied in Mode 2 of the G2, but the order was changed. So the Recessive Genome Became active, and the active became Recesive.
- N'20 was recessive in every Generation, but it sayed in the genome.
- Every combination of the 4 candidates is possible.
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Re: Gametes, Genotype, Phenotype

Post by ShiN1GaM1 » Wed May 31, 2017 1:51 am

Nayus wrote:I made just 1 slight variation where from the 4 homozigots, they get picked 2 at random. So those 2 could be from one parent too, not neccesarily 1 from each.
I used this thecnic too, it migh have scaped your eye, but yes! It is important that u say it again because that's what, actually, brings accuracy to the prosses. But I think your picture represents more accurately what I was trying to say, I was kinda lazy to do a better one.
(btw don't call it ressecive, call it silenced, ressecive means that there is a dominant one, witch is not true)


(o) (o) (o) (o)
So in resume:
-The daughter cell will choose 2 modes out of 4 possibilities, at random;
-Then out of the 2 modes the cell got, it will choose (randomly) 1 to express;
(o) (o) (o) (o)

the advantages of this, I it happens on nature, is that maybe a especific mode is great, but only when combined with some other that doesn't exist on that species (yet). Or maybe a great mode was created to ensure survival when there is no food, but at the moment there is a llot of food, so this mode can be held on even if silenced, and when the conditions change (because they actually change, you can have low food level then cells start to die then high food lvl then cells start to grow up again) the gene can thrive because it would be positively selected.

Btw about the mutation on the gametes, I don't find use in that Since we already have mutation all the time.
In nature meiosis' mutations are really important because there is where they actually happen. Mitosis rarely gives birth to a mutation, and when it does it rarely passes to other generations because our children do not come from mitosis of our arms xD they come from the meioses in sperm cells.
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Re: Gametes, Genotype, Phenotype

Post by ShiN1GaM1 » Wed May 31, 2017 1:57 am

Other thing about gametocites and how they fuse, if we have 2 very diferent species that use gametocites fusing the outcome can be pretty catastrofic, resulting no probabli a bunch of cells not doing anything really, that happens in nature too, but nature has a tecnic to stop that, "selected mating" that means that cells or organism choose whom to mate, this cam be implemented, I already though of somethings like puting a box around a gametocite and opens when it detects some color of something like this tecnic, and diferent species have diferent colors to haunt.
this would happen if gametocites actually fuse with what ever gametocite it collides, maybe a good mecanism for selected mating would be only fuse gametocites with this colorthresh hold or something like that.
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