Gametes, Genotype, Phenotype

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Alast
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Re: Gametes, Genotype, Phenotype

Post by Alast » Wed May 31, 2017 5:27 pm

I guess I need to read more carefully :lol:
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ShiN1GaM1
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Re: Gametes, Genotype, Phenotype

Post by ShiN1GaM1 » Wed May 31, 2017 11:15 pm

So, through the day I was thinking of it, and the advantage of having unexpressed modes is huge, but it's so obvious that I actually didn't meantion it and didn't even remember to do so, my bad ahahah.
The best thing about this "silenced modes" is the same that happens in nature with genes that get duplicate, they have more space for mutation, since they have a "good mode" already they have room for mutation on the other. I'll explain the concept.
We have the normal cells and the expressed modes, on the unexpressed ones they can get as many mutations as they want without affecting the survival of the organism, then in the offspring some might have the muted mode and start to express it, and there selection would act up, or they can give the already expressed mode, and so no diferent from the parents. So what mute modes do is basicly create more room to mutation and let natural selection act just on expressed genes while the unexpressed can accumulate mutations.
Just for the recordthis is how most of our genes got created, so I would put my bets on it, but usually this works better on the long run, one can only see differences after like 6-10 generations (compared with the "20 standard modes")
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Nayus
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Re: Gametes, Genotype, Phenotype

Post by Nayus » Wed May 31, 2017 11:21 pm

So in order to have that effect, it would have to be implemented the "silenced modes get more mutations" thing, right? We didn't discuss how radiation would affect the silenced modes relative to the active ones
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bwisialo
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Re: Gametes, Genotype, Phenotype

Post by bwisialo » Wed May 31, 2017 11:54 pm

Yes. I was referring to the same things when I said unexpressed modes would create more stability and efficiency for optimization in evolution. That's a good thing, but how much more stability and efficiency might be small, and my sense is that it would be equivalent to having a larger population on your substrate.

This overlaps with the discussion of gametes in the General Discussion, where Petter commented that if recombination mutations were the same kinds of mutations as radiation mutations, the result would be an improvement equivalent to having a larger population / substrate. Recombination mutations have a greater significance if they are a different sort of mutation than radiation mutations. But having unexpressed modes only increases the number of modes in the population / gene pool, which seems equivalent to a larger population / substrate.
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ShiN1GaM1
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Re: Gametes, Genotype, Phenotype

Post by ShiN1GaM1 » Thu Jun 01, 2017 12:06 am

bwisialo wrote:Yes. I was referring to the same things when I said unexpressed modes would create more stability and efficiency for optimization in evolution. That's a good thing, but how much more stability and efficiency might be small, and my sense is that it would be equivalent to having a larger population on your substrate.

This overlaps with the discussion of gametes in the General Discussion, where Petter commented that if recombination mutations were the same kinds of mutations as radiation mutations, the result would be an improvement equivalent to having a larger population / substrate. Recombination mutations have a greater significance if they are a different sort of mutation than radiation mutations. But unexpressed modes only increase the number of modes in the population / gene pool, which seems equivalent to a larger population / substrate.
You are totally right so far, but you missed the most important point (in my opinion) witch is that when you have unexpressed modes they are not under natural selection, so they can accumulate mutations better then others that might "want" to be stable.
For example you have a runner, and if you change the division rate and the split mass at once it would be much more fit, But mutations usually only come 1 per time (it is rare to have a lot of mutations at the same time) and if you change one of this parameters without changing the other at the same time the organism becomes less fit, so without unexpressed modes it would be rare to happen, but in case we have unexpressed modes, the split mass can change, and that individual won't be selected out because the mutation might have occured on the unexpressed mode, then it can mutate again (hopefully in the split ratio would change this time and the unexpressed mode becomes good one, this time when it goes to the offspring it would have a selective advantage and so it would "conquer" the map, by incrising it's frequency. This is one of many examples, they are hard to explain for me, but I think the best example is nature itself. (maybe i'm getting a little too philosofical here).
Nayus wrote:So in order to have that effect, it would have to be implemented the "silenced modes get more mutations" thing, right? We didn't discuss how radiation would affect the silenced modes relative to the active ones
No, not at all, the mutation rate could prety much be the same, the phenomena I was talking "acumulating more mutations" is because this mode is under no selection so even if it becomes some non sence at all, they wouldn't be selected out (at least imidiatly, because due to genetic drift, probably the bad modes, even the unexpressed ones, would disapear after some generations)

If you guys find need in more concrete examples I'd be glad to make some schemes. (o)
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ShiN1GaM1
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Re: Gametes, Genotype, Phenotype

Post by ShiN1GaM1 » Thu Jun 01, 2017 12:13 am

Just to make things clear, this won't be exacly the same as increasing the gene pool, because if u pass from 100 cells to 200 cells you would have more gene pool maybe, but they were all under selection so there was little room for mutation that might change the organism, entirely, because without unexpressed modes the mutations would give rise to an optimised organism, yes, indeed. but from a ecological perspective Unexpressed modes could give rise to new species that maybe we didn't imagine so far.
I see 1 (maybe big) disadvantage witch is something that is talked quite a lot, that is: that would require more memory, and RAM (almost the double I guess) so maybe for that a "toogle" button when creating the substrate, close tot he size of the petry dish, or in the list of parameters ingame. Idk witch one would be better fot he game. Maybe if you implement it, it would be better to put it ingame already and if toogled cells would duplicate their genome (homozigots) and would start evolving and so on, if toogled off then the unexpressed modes of each cells get deleted and the game get exactly how it was before this change.
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Nayus
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Re: Gametes, Genotype, Phenotype

Post by Nayus » Thu Jun 01, 2017 12:27 am

...they can accumulate mutations better then others that might "want" to be stable.
Oh right, I get it. That makes sense :)

But yeah, the RAM thing is a huge expense just to have those background movements.

It would have a positive effect in evolution, but if we talk about a bigger RAM investment, I think more users (myself included) would prefer just having a boost in the amount of modes rather than this.
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bwisialo
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Re: Gametes, Genotype, Phenotype

Post by bwisialo » Thu Jun 01, 2017 12:36 am

when you have unexpressed modes they are not under natural selection, so they can accumulate mutations better then others that might "want" to be stable.
This seems true. But I'm not sure this would be different than increasing radiation, or rather, increasing population and radiation. I don't understand the sorts of calculations Petter was using well enough in order assess this. :?
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ShiN1GaM1
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Re: Gametes, Genotype, Phenotype

Post by ShiN1GaM1 » Sat Jun 23, 2018 2:47 am

After a year of thinking I finally found the words to express it! ahaha
Silenced modes, gives us the possibility to jump from a local minimum to other (or even to the global minimum) which is hard with no silenced modes. This only has the evolutionary advantagem tho, so I don't think it would be essential for the game. As it might take more memory to keep track of 40 more modes.
If you love it hard enough, eventually you'll be the best at it (o)
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