Some biological insight

We like few-celled organisms, not bugs!
Post Reply
User avatar
ShiN1GaM1
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue May 30, 2017 12:57 am

Some biological insight

Post by ShiN1GaM1 » Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:22 am

Hi everyone, I've been away from cell lab for a few months due to college... but I came back a couple weeks ago. I was sad that the gametocytes weren't released yet for the public (as I was until 5 min ago ahah, I didn't know everyone could join the beta testing until that time).
I've read some of the topics in the forum and I've noticed some coments and questions about mutations and smart/dumb organisms.
I have 1 suggestion and some "coments" (?) i'd like to make so we can all think them thought.
suggestion: make the mutation rate be different in mitosis and in meiosis (fecundation); Well it so happens (in real life that) mutations are so much often in meiosis (because of crossing over - the process which makes the "father" and "mother" DNA mix up to create a new cromossome) than in mitosis, this would prety much solve the problem that large (and complex) organisms are very sensitive to mutation. With this change the variation will come from the meiosis and not so much from mitosis. Of course this would mean that every organism should have meiosis to have variation. There are a few things we can do to solve this:
  • 1- when a cell divide there could be an option ON/OFF "Meiosis" when ON and "Mitosis" when off (and meioses should be used to create the egg of the organism - basicly the initial cell)
  • 2- Nothing, yes :lol: nothing. In nature, the most simple organisms divide and complete their life cicle only using mitosis (all bacteria, all archaea, most protists, and even some plants) meiosis is a complex mechanism that only appeared late in evolution (at the same time as sexual reproduction did) and this means: simple organisms reproduce ising mitosis and it's enough, complex organisms use meiosis. Since simple ones divide so much often this will compensate for the low mutation rate. In complex organisms they usually replicate less often (even if slightly) and so the meiosis puts more variability on their genomes.
So this is for better allowing more complex organisms to appear without making them over sensitive to mutations. Now about some population genomics:
In college I got the formal knowledge of what most of us most probably think already, which is "Genetic drift". I'll explain:
Well, when in a population we have ex: 60% frequency of 1 gene and 40% of other, we expect them to stay in the same proportion if both are equally advantageous, or if it's a gene that is not important at all. But in not infinite populations (which is the case all the time :roll: ) there are random chances that the frequency won't stay the same due to random sampling of organisms, this phenomena is stronger the smaller the population is. An example:
Image
if u can't see the image the link is: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... _chart.png
Even when it's a gene that is under selection (a useful gene or a "bad" on) genetic drift also plays a role in it. The smaller the population the bigger the role. Don't underestimate it's power, it happens a lot that genetic drift is bigger then selection. (Every one saw this happening I'm sure, when u have a population with one color and all of a suddent the population changes color, probably it was because of genetic drift, since color doesn't aftect it's ability to reproduce and likely only the color has changed).
So basicly evolution, is not perfect, and not predictable, and it doesn't always goes for better, there is more random then u expect.
I usually separate evolution in 3 steps:
  • 1- Mutation (for variability)
  • 2- Selection
  • 3- Fixation of the gene
Mutation as everyone knows is random, nothing new. Selection if u think of it, it might be difficult sometimes to predict but if u are omniscient and u take everything into account u can theoreticly predict it, but when we take into account the genetic drift and the "Bottle neck" effect (which is kinda similar but different reasons) then selection is a little random as well (or a lot depending on the population size). Then it is only evolution if all the population has that gene (the gene is fixed), for instance, red/brown/etc hair collor is not evolution since not all people have that gene, but arms and legs are because all of us have them (most of us :( ).

So I said all this, please give me your feedback on what u think about all this, if it makes sence, if there are some kind of sollutions to somethings... etc

Greetings, Leandro.
If you love it hard enough, eventually you'll be the best at it (o)
User avatar
WhatTheSillyName
Posts: 69
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2017 2:13 pm
Location: Hong Kong

Re: Some biological insight

Post by WhatTheSillyName » Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:17 am

I am not sure that I really understand your meaning, but it is a brilliant idea! (^_^)
Ya~
User avatar
ShiN1GaM1
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue May 30, 2017 12:57 am

Re: Some biological insight

Post by ShiN1GaM1 » Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:13 pm

So, basicly, there are 2 options:
  • 1- Making a selectable button (like "Make adhesine") "Division mode" Mitosis/Meiosis, and they would have different mutational rates, selected in the substracte options.
  • 2- Make the mutations happen when 2 gametes fuse together, and add that motation rate at the substrate as well, this way simple organisms will have less mutations per cicle (but they have more cicles per unit of time) and complex organisms aren't affected by mutation when growing, only when reproducing.
Last edited by ShiN1GaM1 on Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
If you love it hard enough, eventually you'll be the best at it (o)
Noughtypixy
Posts: 234
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:30 pm

Re: Some biological insight

Post by Noughtypixy » Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:44 pm

This might also aid more complex organisms if all mutations happened in initial cell they would succeed or not rather than becoming a random blobmass
beware the pixys
User avatar
ShiN1GaM1
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue May 30, 2017 12:57 am

Re: Some biological insight

Post by ShiN1GaM1 » Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:28 pm

Some admin/moderator opinion?
If you love it hard enough, eventually you'll be the best at it (o)
User avatar
ShiN1GaM1
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue May 30, 2017 12:57 am

Re: Some biological insight

Post by ShiN1GaM1 » Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:09 am

What I wanted to suggest is mutation upon division, instead of radiation (maybe both, maybe make them parameters in the substrate) and maybe a "meiosis" division with an independent mutation rate, so that multicelular organisms can have variance without compromising the organism since large organisms are more susceptible to mutation by radiation or by mitosis.

Any chance this could happen Peter?
If you love it hard enough, eventually you'll be the best at it (o)
Post Reply